Are you saying the honorarium folks should deny a class because it didn’t seem like a class people want to take
Or that they should deny if it’s a class like a tool training where people have a history of not coming when registered
I only meant the former, but it would also cut down on the latter. It is a very bad solution, but it will cut down in the no-show problem if that is the priority…
If it’s a members only class, they can’t use throw always - so training required will almost always be a member email. I’m in agreement with @John_Marlow a software upgrade that tracks no-shows would be valuable. Give a “Mulligan” every 6 to 9 months then start the penalty phase. Life happens - but if your life continually causes disruption, you need to get yours more under control before impacting others. That’s not being harsh when dealing with limited resource.
My reasoning is not the penalty for instructors, but for students that weren’t able to attend and wanted to. I think with classes like Wood Shop basics where there is such demand, if you don’t drop before at least 7 hours in advance - you’re out for registering again for a couple of months. Put that in the warnings. That at least let’s people check at lunch to see if there is an opening.
I’d hate to see a lot of $5 are-you-serious fees. But it is amazing how much of an effect that has on signing up on a whim. Now I did sign up for the EVA foam class the other night - didn’t attend. Forgot I had a class to teach! But then again, the EVA foam class had 75 people attend, so probably minimal impact.
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Now I am afraid to sign up for a class until the last minute
Between my hubby and my health issues and an older car, I
may have solid plans to take a class, Recently we headed for the
space and between traffic and overheating car, it took us over 4
hours to make a normal 20 min trip, Another night, the overheating issue, caused
me to miss a class I wanted to take.
Guess I will stop signing up until the last min
If everybody does that, we will have lots of instructors cancelling classes…
And that is the problem, if we start penalizing no show,
One of my no shows on Wed night was someone that I expected
to me there, I am sure that eitheer she fogor or that something
else came up since I know that she is a resposible person
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I’d always thought the only current mechanism to discourage no-shows is to charge a class fee of some kind. I’ve been considering this for Shapeoko Basic though not because of any honorarium concerns. People who do not cancel and then no-show are preventing others from taking the class because it’s size limited. I only do 2 a month and nobody else has stepped up to help teach it which means I think some folks have to wait longer than they should to get into the class.
Stuff happens and I’m definitely not advocating some kind of strict, no mulligan policy here. Perhaps we could get a report out of the system that does a join against persons signed up and persons marked as attended so that we might see if there’s a pattern of specific individuals who need extra encouragement.
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Great topic @mblatz,
Also, I like many of your points @John_Marlow and @Photomancer.
Lets layout the issues of student no shows based on their impact.
Impact on students:
- No showing for a full limited seat class stops other students from being able to attend
- Possible cancelling of class due to lack of attendance
Impact on teachers / committees:
- No shows pulling class under honorarium limit,
- Instructor not paid for class
- Committee not paid for class
- if using honorarium to cover materials instructor and or committee out additional cost of materials
- Class doesn’t count towards the Committee’s class count as we only track honorarium classes possibly effecting committee funding by BOD
- Wasting Instructor’s time and effort
Impact on DMS Facility and Finances:
- Not paying an instructor or committee
- Locking a room or tool from use when it could of been open to the space.
No shows only really have an effect when seating is limited, materials are supplied, or when honorarium is involved. Between DMS Facillity, Instructors, and Students, Students will be the largest group and should be considered. But, students are also the consumer and the DMS facilities and instructors are the suppliers here. If we don’t take care of these, there will be no students. Facilities is currently a minor issue as expressed by @Bill as much of the time the facilities are empty. But, we are losing teachers because of honorarium issues, especially when it comes to not getting paid. This has effects well beyond the teacher. Committees lose funding, committee heads lose interest in trying to support teaching due to high turn over of teachers. The loss of instructors hurts Students, because without instructors we have no students. Education is our goal here at DMS.
I would hope we can work towards a better system to support our instructors. Because this will lead to classes that teach deeper and richer subject matter. Rather than minimum safety classes, require access, or introductory topics. Or we can continue to tell struggling instructors to just buck up and take it on the chin.
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I like this idea as a first step (paraphrasing Peter Drucker et al: if you don’t measure it, you can’t understand it or manage it!).
Dismissing for the moment that some instructors don’t follow-up as they should with marking student attendance (which should not be allowed but that’s a different discussion), does @Team_Calendar feel that this reporting, along with any accompanying changes to current processes and databases that might be needed, could be produced with relative ease?
To avoid the case where instructors are not marking attendance or a class was cancelled by instructor at last minute the reporting could exclude classes where no one was marked as having attended. But there is no point in submitting a request if there is no bandwidth within the Calendar team or we don’t feel this information would provide enough overall value to take further action or make additional policy. I.E. if no-shows are not considered an issue, then so be it; that’s a policy statement in and of itself.
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If the instructor does not mark attendance, it will tell the honorarium spreadsheet the calendar system shows zero attendees so no honorarium. It’s usually a self-correcting problem after first time.
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I believe that I am exception to that. Lol. There have been a few times I’ve taught say on Sunday morning at 9, then remembered at 10 Monday morning. I usually have a few choice words when that happens.
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Easily solve with automated email notification from system: “You class time has passed. Have you done your DMS patriotic civic duty and marked attendance?”
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That’s why I take attendance first thing. I see how often folks ask @StanSimmons to enter the attendees, which must be done manually. I hope it was taken for the 75 people at Wedesday’s class …
We usually sit across from each other in the common room, so I try to keep him well fed with snacks so when I finally flub it, I’ll have good will. Actually, he keeps me fed when he brings a sack 59 cents tacos over!
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Man this is a good discussion,
So we are at look into the data of the current attendance to see how bad the problem of Student No Shows is. Luckily this should be pretty good data as it is required to get honorarium, but may have some over reporting of attendance due to the ability of teachers to just mark all as here.
Do we have someone that can submit the request for the data? I would suggest @mblatz, @John_Marlow, or @Photomancer. I would throw my name in, but I will be out of town next week. The three of you seem all capable of tackling this though I’m sure you are also all busy people as well. I only put your names forward as my suggestion to take the next step on this.
Re taking attendance
I’m VERY paranoid about forgetting so I set a nag reminder on my phone to pester me every 30 minutes starting about thirty minutes after class start 
Re no shows
I honestly think some of this is it not even occurring to folks that unregistering if they can’t attend is an Excellent thing. It’s a matter of training the culture of the environment. When I have mentioned it to a class of mine, there’s always a couple had no idea it was a nice thing to do. We get new folks all the time and this is just one more thing in a flurry of things to learn and it gets lost. Even folks that have been around, when the calendar converted it took awhile to train folks to get in the habit of registering even for the non-limited space classes.
I started putting a little blurb high in the description (“above the fold”) on my limited space classes to make note that this is limited spaces and please be excellent and cancel registration if you can’t join us so it gives someone else an opportunity for that spot. I’ve had a nice cut down on no-shows doing that. Not perfect but better. And no need to add an unnecessary incentive fee so far. I get the need on some things but I’ve been trying to avoid.
I’ve thought it might be a nice calendar enhancement to add/tweak a blurb when they register that reminds them to cancel registration if they can’t attend.
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What about just charging a fee to no shows?
how do you get it out of them?
Why can’t instructors still get their honorarium? No shows are not their fault or under their control. Sometimes I get sick and have to cancel and it upsets me that the instructor might get punished but I don’t know what I can do about it. I would prefer to pay a fee or let the instructor keep anything I paid for the class.
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There was some concern that instructors were just dragging people in from the hallways to sign the attendance log in order to garner the honorarium. The new requirement that there must be at least three attendees (who registered in advance) is intended to prevent that behavior.
Not sayin’ the rule is good or bad, not sayin’ the prior concern was true or false - just telling you the logic behind the rule; at least as I understand it.
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My 2 cents on no shows. It happens sometimes. It’s also really impolite and disrespectful to the instructor. On the other hand, I have also signed up for classes where the instructor canceled. I didn’t like that either, but stuff happens. I don’t think penalizing someone is the answer…per se…but I do believe there should be a basic guideline that all members should know about and follow. Something like this:
- All people that sign up for classes and can’t make it for whatever reason should notify the instructor as soon as they know they won’t be coming.
- If a no call/ no show happens, a friendly reminder is sent to the person informing them of the policy and telling them to comply.
- Two no calls/no shows this person should be put on a (grey) list of potential no shows so the instructor can act accordingly.
- The 3rd no call/no show would automatically trigger the person to get approval from the instructor before they can be admitted to the class. Instructor can admit or omit at their own individual discretion.
IMHO this is less punitive, and more administerial and should curve individuals from this behavior.
On a side note. I wish there would also be a standard for instructors when teaching classes. One of the things I find annoying is when an instructor does not have/use any presentation (ie powerpoint) software, and/or has presentation software, but does not make it available on the shared drive to revert to at a later time. I think a consistent instructor approach (not style) would make learning more cohesive for all DMS members.