YILDIZ SILAH YP12W 12/3” Magnum Case included.
$215
Mossberg Patriot 270 WIN crossfire2 scope Case included.
$375
Hoyt xt2000 Magnatec compound bow build hy 25 arrows Case included.
$360
Bearx vanish crossbow with 3 bolts and stand case included.
$310
These firearms are registered and legal(have talked to a talk moderator already). The pick up would be towards San Antonio straight up 35 if you’re interested. My information to contact me is 423-293-5891
This is a terrible idea. Because:
We don’t want to risk aiding and abetting a felony, illegal gun sale made without a FFL. Are you engaged in the side-hustle of “flipping” guns and weapons for profit, which would make you a dealer subject to licensing requirements? I don’t know, and no one should have to take anyone’s word for it on something this important. DMS shouldn’t turn a reckless, blind eye to the legality of sales occurring via its TALK network. Can you provide a legal opinion from a reputable attorney proving that the sale will meet all legal requirements if sold in Texas? What about the jurisdictions where your buyer may be located? What due diligence will you do when making the sale, and what if that process is insufficient?
If this gun is bought by someone who shouldn’t own it (felon, organized crime, white supremacist shooter, vegas-style massacre guy, paranoid delusional nutcase, 15-year-old, guy subject to restraining order, intoxicated guy, guy driving in from out of state to pick up the gun, etc.) then DMS would get tons of bad press. We’d also be partially culpable – at least morally – for aiding and abetting whatever is done with this assault rifle, etc.
Regardless of the legality of the sale, we’re likely to get dragged into any litigation that may involve the use of these weapons. Does our D&O policy cover us for this kind of risk?
I respectfully suggest you sell your weapons on Facebook Marketplace without involving DMS.
@Julie-Harris @brsims @skyspook and (curtis baker?)
I’m not on the board since the last election, but since you asked, I don’t see a big problem with this from a liability perspective. Private party gun sales in Texas are legal and have very few restrictions. Beyond that, I know of no indication, either by statute or common law, that a third party message board could face liability for this type of a sale.
For further reading:
https://faq.sll.texas.gov/questions/44008
Now, on a personal level I guess I prefer Talk “for sale” posts to be at least marginally maker related, i.e. tools, crafts, materials, etc. But I don’t think that’s ever been a rule. And Lord knows, Patrick has tried to sell all manner of weird stuff on here over the years and it’s never really been a problem as far as I know.
Under Texas law (Penal Code 46.06), a private gun sale is illegal if you know (or a jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that you know) that (i) your buyer intends to use it unlawfully or to commit a crime, (ii) your buyer is under 18, (iii) your buyer is drunk or on intoxicating drugs, (iv) your buyer is a convicted felon, or (v) your buyer is the subject of an active protective order. It’s also illegal to sell guns that were acquired in violation of federal law or the laws of any state.
The law regarding aiding and abetting liability can cast a wide net, as can conspiracy. Even if you have the better argument, and even if your position eventually holds up in court, that doesn’t protect DMS from adverse press, costs of defending in court, costs of dealing with an official investigation, bad reactions from some DMS members, reputational damage, increased D&O insurance premiums, and the like.
For DMS, nothing good can come out of this. Why do we want to be known as the best place to advertise your guns? If Facebook doesn’t allow it (and for good reason!), why should we? We don’t want to become known as the “Shady Shit Showcase.”
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm#46.06
There is absolutely no indication that this is anything more than Patrick offering to sell some guns he owns. It baffles me why this community continuously makes mountains of molehills.
At the point where there’s any indication that we are becoming known as “the best place to advertise your guns”, I’d probably agree with you (although not from a liability perspective). Until then, trying to legislate against everything anyone doesn’t like is going to create more problems than it solves.
Would your opinion change if you knew for a fact that the guns were acquired illegally, would be sold illegally, or would be used illegally?
Is this an “I don’t know” or “I don’t care” situation?
At that point the traffic alone would encourage policy changes to remove for sale posts.
Yes, I suppose if I had actual knowledge of illegality surrounding the sale, my opinion would change.
As to the second part, I’m not sure what you mean. It’s certainly an “I don’t know” situation (because I know absolutely nothing about where they came from or what Patrick is trying to do with regard to those guns, except for sell them) and at least until I have (or DMS has) actual knowledge that either he or the buyer is breaking or attempting to break the law, it’s probably an “I don’t care” as well.
Please research for yourself the various legal definitions of criminal recklessness.
I went to law school too, pal. Lol.
I didn’t know that. So you’re aware that the ostrich defense doesn’t always work.
Sure, and in my time as a professional corporate risk manager, I also gained an appreciation for which activities I think represent a realistic litigation risk scenario. As I’ve stated above, I don’t think this is one of them. I appreciate that you do. I’m not even saying you’re wrong. I’m just providing my (non legal advice) opinion on the matter.
It’s the moral risk that concerns me more than the legal ones. I don’t want my DMS dues to go toward enabling activity that might harm people. If we were directly regulating the sale in ways that ensured the guns were landing in the hands of responsible people, I’d take more comfort in helping to promote gun marketing.
DMS Talk being used to sell a vehicle is orders of magnitude more likely to result in eventual harm to someone than a firearm sale is. In fact, it’s a near certainty that a vehicle will eventually be used to cause some harm of some degree.
There used to be rules against the sale of weapons/ammo here… And those posts used to get taken down.
I think you win “most reasonable”.
I am not aware of any such rule(s) nor am I recalling any posts having been taken down during my time with DMS. My efforts to turn this up have so far failed, so I am not aware of any current or past rules nor rules of thumb to this effect.
This means the Mod team is inclined think this is not outside of the bounds of good membership in our community, and not illegal (though that is the BoD’s purview, were something obviously to be not legal, we could act of our own volition - This is not), and unless something new comes to light, this likely will be left as-is.
Thank you to all our great members who are on the lookout for the 'Space’s best interest. We appreciate your passion. There are idle tools just begging for something non-firearm-related to be made.
I think if @patrickpleez1 checks and preferably photographs a drivers license, executes a bill of sale (for his own protection) that includes a statement by the buyer that the buyer isn’t prohibited from buying a firearm, all will be fine.
I made Jim Tanner do the same when we horse-traded one of my guns for some random electronic crap.
Not a big deal.
I didn’t o to law school. It looks as if Patrick is advertising. He provides a telephone number, not associated with DMS to contact him. If someone contacts him with their own phone DMS is not involved. Patrick and the buyer are obliged to ensure that no laws are broken in their private transaction.
We can’t be agnostic about whether laws are being broken or might be broken. Not if he’s using DMS’ resources and reputation to further his aims. We either have to regulate his conduct or have a blanket policy prohibiting the advertising of firearm sales on our TALK site.
We all like Patrick, but what are we going to do about the next guy who wants to advertise his guns on TALK? Is it going to be our policy to ignore everything until the police or press come knocking?
