It’s a pity we’ve made you feel that way. I think talking about things on TALK is very important, and think we can iron some things out here better than in person, or at least with less time spent wheel spinning whilst sitting in the meetings. I apologize if you thought the mountain comment applied to your inquiry; it did not. Your inquiry is perfectly valid, as have been all the points made, well summed up by Marshall above. I agree our eyes should be wide open, and things as the much more massive organisation we are now may be quite different, but that does NOT mean we should sprint headlong into nixing every potentially letigious activity DMS engages in. It might very well BE appropriate to purchase specific and/or augmented coverage, which I think you are right to inquire about, and appreciate your doing. However, these should be decisions based in reality, not reactions to fearful predictions, which is where I see this going if not carefully measured & monitored. I trust you (each of you on the board) to do this right. I want to help you see the big picture. So far we HAVE NOT, in my opinion, devolved into mountaineering, but some of the base camps have been established, so I think it prudent to point them out, and help navigate around them, if possible.
As I voted to keep the car and have repeatedly stated I am behind the project as an educational tool as well as a racing event I am now actively searching to make it happen. I asked so I can find out what we need to do toward finding insurance if we need it.
From the 24 Hours of Lemons FAQ webpage…
“Do I need to smog it and register it and insure it?
No. The whole thing takes place on a private racetrack, so there are no DMV or auto-insurance requirements.”
Even if on a private track, and title is not required, if there is a serious injury/death involving this car, the drivers may have signed waivers, but heirs or injured third parties may or may not have and they may sue for damages. This is not hypothetical, it is a real concern, real liability.
Note injured person was a spectator with signed liability waivers. So Kris’s concerns and BoD is: How can we use this asset AND protect the Space? Is insurance even available, looking at an $11 million verdict I’d say $10 million policy isn’t enough. I would encourage the driver’s that want to keep the car to actively try and find an insurer and get a quote. I looked at about 6 online: they will cover the car in transit, storage, etc. but not during racing and nothing about liability. How many of you carry personal insurance, typically an umbrella policy, of $1 million or more - and does it have a “racing/hazardous activity exclusion”
To address @Mike_k’s concern, I have no problem selling the car to you folks, you do have a lot of sweat equity into it and it seems only fair to me. You would still have access to all of DMS facilities and equipment to work on it - but storage costs and all the financial liability would be on you individually not DMS. The issue isn’t taking the car away, it is what is the exposure to DMS? That is something the BoD’s have a fiduciary responsibility to the corporation/members.
How many of us “loan” cars out regularly without fear of liability for what happens if there is an accident? That assumes you and the driver have insurance even.
It is often discussed that DMS should buy a Pick-up truck - but the insurance and liability issue always comes up. In the Lemons car we totally lack insurance but I can find a local $11 million judgement at a track that had waivers. If the car is totaled: Meh, we had a $8k Haas mill head crash. We can survive that. A $250K judgement puts us out of business. That is the concern.
Interesting concerns to bring up ~4 years and 5+ races into the project, but as Chuck (@dallasmagna) was the initial project lead and has agreed to do it again, maybe he can give some details on how these concerns were addressed initially to get the project approved and calm people’s fears.
What’s past is past, can’t change that. We fortunately didn’t have anything arise.
But looking forward doesn’t mean it can be ignored because we didn’t do it in the past isn’t justification to keep doing it in the future. I’ll ask again, those that want to race this car find a liability insurer and get a quote so the risk can be managed and that issue is dead when a policy is procured. I would imagine they are sold by the event and experience/training of the drivers. I’m sure it exists.
David, not sure if you are aware are not but if someone is injured in something like machine shop there is no insurance. It seems to me something else is at play because I can think of way more risks to health and body at DMS, than a sanctioned race with drivers and safety equipment.
Thank you David and Merissa for researching/linking LeMon’s stance and an instance of a liability issue.
I will point out, however, that it was the event organizer and hoster who was sued, not the car owner/sponsor (though they might be the same, the article was not clear on that).
Nevertheless, your point stands. These things make me sad, but that won’t protect us from litigiousness, crooked lawyers, or insane juries, either. Insurance might.
There is a distinct difference between a suit from a member or the family as opposed to from a random driver or spectator or their family.
I’ve looked, albeit briefly, into “track day” insurance and it typically covers vehicle damage, not personal injury. I’d have to investigate more as my search was far from exhaustive and quite some time ago now. From what I recall such insurance is for a weekend or specific driving event and is intended for covering the gaps in ‘normal’ auto insurance; though this perspective could have mirrored my own at the time since I wasn’t yet involved in a race team. My perspective was certainly not the current perspective of the Board’s and is an entirely different question in terms of liability. As a driver, I expect any injuries I sustain to be on me and health insurance. Perhaps the space needs a special liability form for such cases? Disclaimer: I’m about as far from a lawyer as it gets.
I don’t mind approving race day insurance. That’s why I asked the question in the first place. 
Kris what exactly are you looking to insure against? I don’t think Race Day Insurance is what you think it is it has no relations to your personal vehicle policy.
I did a cursory search and found several providers of motorsports insurance. They offer liability coverage for team owners, sponsors, etc. I haven’t gotten any farther into it than that.
Brett,
You’re finding what I’m finding in insurance:
- The car can be covered “transport, storage, display, etc.” but not during the race for any damage.
- Personal car insurance excludes “racing”
… 2A. “Types of Events Any non-competition”, so not the race itself
… 2B. “- HPDE/DE Coverage for your Vehicle while On-Track. Agreed Value up to $1,000,000 per vehicle. • On-Track Coverage to Cover Vehicle Against Physical Damage Caused by an Accident While in Motion Under Own Power and/or While the Race or Practice is Deemed in Progress* Agreed Value up to $1,000,000 per vechicle.” Again, just the car, but this covers it while racing. Note: these are for high value vehicles - not $500 Lemons cars.
…2C This is more of an article but gives a helpful search term “Key-on” covers the race itself: how-to-insure-your-race-car
2D. Another good article:THEY’RE ASSIGNED RISKS : Insurance for Race Drivers, Tracks Available, but It’s Costly What is interesting, they had a policy for the race, but during a pre-race checkout for tire testing, there was an accident: not covered because not part of the race.
…3D This looks like a good starting place for getting a quote: Select a Category All Programs Sports Recreation Health & Fitness Events & Attractions Venues Motorsports Outfitters & Guides Camps Concessionaires, Exhibitors & Vendors Products Liability Franchised Dealerships Entertainment D&O with EPLI Campground, Resort and Guest Ranch Fraternal Orders Select An Application By Category By Program Request Program Kit Link to K&K Canada Racing Owners & Sponsors Liability It also has a PDF that can be downloaded (I’d didn’t). Also shows venues covers. But seems to cover drivers and spectators.
Anyway, this is what I found. Hope it helps in the search. One site for a one day event stated coverage available for as little as $1,000-$1,500 day. So whatever it is, it ain’t’ gonna be cheap.
Hope this helps
If the scenario is someone suing DMS for providing the space to work on the car(which applies to every vehicle worked on at DMS), why would our existing organizational insurance not be in effect?
I think the concern is based on DMS being the owner of the vehicle.
I think the scenario is more along the lines of if the race car under ownership of Dallas Makerspace - or any piece of it - flies off the track and either kills or seriously maims a spectator … Who pays up if/when The Space gets sued?
The policy specifies the address/facilities for which the policy coverage is written, they even had an auditor come out to view the facilities they were insuring.
If you do your own work on your own car - DMS doesn’t own the car or control the work that is done. With a car that DMS owns, maintains, and sponsors in a race that DMS members drive, we are encumbered with all aspects ownership and responsibility of the vehicle.
It is one of the prime reasons we have the rule that you can only work on your own car - not a car you don’t own. This helps shield DMS from liability - you have access to tools but it is really no different than you doing it in the driveway. It is also one of the prime reasons we’ve always had a prohibition for teaching a class on brakes, at least at this location. There are few things that can go wrong that equal the catastrophic results of brake failure. The prospect of “That’s how they taught me.” always looms large.
The issue of working on cars was such a concern as to coverage that it was raised with our current insurer when taking out the policy. The old policy didn’t specifically reference it. The concern was so much so, that one of our listed functions is “auto repair” that ensures make sure we were covered if some happens here and and they could not deny we do work on cars. They were also impressed with the records we kept on lift classes: attendance, lesson plan, and tests as well as they were kept on file.
Can you point to this no classes related to braking components policy in writing anywhere?
Sounds like DMS does not want to be associated with any activities that take place outside of DMS walls. Any competition from trebuchets, races, or picnics all take place outside the address/facility of the organizations policy.