Automotive Class offered

Again, show me where this rule is located. Does it mean that I can’t get an honorarium, or I am specifically prohibited from showing somehow how to replace a serpentine belt or a spark plug wire?

I don’t know if that wording is in writing, I don’t have a copy of our policy paperwork. It was communicated to me after verbal discussion with our insurance broker by the several trusted members who met with her.

Someone trying to run such a class would be jeopardizing the very existence of DMS, as losing insurance = no more DMS.

You can give advice and assist someone working on their vehicle as long as they are doing the work themselves. That has different implications than teaching official ‘sanctioned’ class to a group of people.

Yes vehicles are fundamentally different unique as far as insuraince is concerned, I realize it doesn’t make sense, but to the best of my knowledge that is the world we live in.

Sounds like a topic for the next board meeting. Unwritten “rules” are bad. Verbal agreements don’t hold up in court. Etc, etc.

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I would suggest emailing the board for further clarification, and once proof is obtained, we can request a rule to be added at the next board meeting. No point in adding something to the agenda unless there’s a proposed solution that is immediately actionable.

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Agreed. I’ll send an email.

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Rule # 9 for Events states “Terms and Conditions for events can be dictated and modified by the Board of Directors.”. The insurance concerns for automotive classes were discussed at length in the board meeting on Wednesday, with the BOD supporting everything Brandon’s said here.

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Must have happened after I left. I’ll review the video.

In that case, I’ll add an agenda item to have those special rules for Automotive added to someplace public. Not everyone reads Talk, nor can we hold someone accountable after the fact for something which was not communicated to them beforehand, assuming they were complying with the spirit and letter of DMS Rules.

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The pansy ass “what if” and “liability” garbage that seems to over rule common sense. THis breaks rule number 1 at the DMS.

If liability is such a fear - then have a tablet at the lift where anyone that allows their car to be looked at signs the disclaimer like they do at the front door.

ASE certified means nothing to the European car world.

Perhaps I should “Un-Donate” the lift?

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Common sense dictates that you consider the consequences before acting. The board has bent over backward to get the insurance company to allow as much automotive activity at DMS as there is. A liability waiver will not protect DMS or the insurance company from a lawsuit.

What certifications should we require people to have to teach classes on European cars?

By definition a donor has no control over donations.

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Thank you Captain obvious!

The liability waiver won’t protect anyone form any lawsuit period, so why have have the waivers at the door in the first place?

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As I said multiple times in the board meeting, I don’t like the rule either, but the reality of the situation is that the Makerspace is a unique organization type that insurance companies are extremely hesitant to insure at all.

Originally, we were told by insurance to stop all automotive work or we would not be renewed. The rules we have in place now are a result of discussions with our insurance broker and underwriters, and represents the best compromise we were able to obtain. Don’t like it? I don’t either, but the other option was for us to shut down automotive work entirely.

If anyone would like to help in the search for insurance that would be less strict, please check with @Robert_Davidson, as I’m sure he would love the assistance.

Operating without insurance is not an option, as our lease requires specific levels of insurance and coverage. Additionally, the level of automotive work allowed was also initially limited by the lease, which we were also able to negotiate and get clarification. The tone of some of these posts is extremely disrespectful to the people who have spent months working to ensure that automotive work could be done at the space.

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Can the people worried about automotive liability issues at least concede one point that keeps coming up? (not sure we were even successful with this in the BoD meeting)

Repair shops who cover (certified) employees and an organization run by volunteers with members who need no other credentials/certs are two completely scenarios when it comes to insurance coverage.

If we could at least start there and stop throwing around arguments like that out (which IMO waste time), it would be a good start.

If you guys want to have a sit down with our insurance broker, it’s possible that could be worked out. I’ve never spoken with our broker etc. (this was before my time on BoD etc.), but if you want to hear it from the “horse’s mouth” this might be the best plan of action. It’s also possible they might be able to figure something out etc.

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To follow up I will gladly work with anyone that wants to take it up and look for a policy. That being said it’s not like calling your insurance broker and ordering insurance.

We were denied by no less than 50 Brokers that just had no idea how to insure us.
We have been denied by a substantial amount of the underwriters that ensure the non-profit space.

My recommendation before you take up this crusade.

Are you willing to spend at least 40 hours on it?
Are you willing to take off work to meet inspectors, brokers and agents during business hours?
Are you willing to be denied at every turn?
Have you identified a single other business that does what you’re asking?

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I don’t like it, but I accept that this is the way it is.

What I’m focusing on is: Where are the automotive rules written down? The ASE certified restriction on teaching classes is not documented anywhere as far as I can find.

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I appreciate everyone’s candour, and I love the passion. Clearly, many “makers” are “petrolheads” as well. Or maybe it’s the other way 'round. Point is, we are NOT unique; there are spaces like ours worldwide where “hackers” and “robotitsts” and “petrolheads” and “tinkerers” all want to be able to work. Some of them accommodate (allegedly, from the rumors on the Interwebnetomatronic) automotive work, to the point of “advertising” automotive maintenance classes. Although the articles I saw might be out of date, one of those is ATX Hackerspace here in our own state, which lends a special bit of relevance. I understand how much effort has been put in, and having shared in bits of information dropped here and there from time to time, I know many of us pay special attention to what other “maker-like spaces” are doing. Have we asked them how their handling insurance? Specifically if they offer automotive classes?

Secondly, this comes up frequently, I think, because it is poorly documented. This conversation, essentially, needs to be added to the wiki, maybe stickied, certainly in the “about automotive category” in Talk, etc., in honest, up-front, plain language, not dissimilar to what Andrew LeCody posted. Essentially, let all potential members know that we are ACTIVELY WORKING to prevent growth in the automotive activity not because we want to, but because we cannot find any way other than how it is now due to insurance limitations. The invitations to help find another way can be included, and I thank Robert Davidson for his elaboration on the sacrifices folks have already made to get us as far as we are now. If others (like myself) want to push forward from here, ain’t nothing but us standing in our own way. Self-insured organizations which own their assets right down to the ground don’t care about any of this crap. That leaves most of us in this boat.

Thirdly, I think it might make this all much easier if automotive spun off into a cooperative organization and run in a “Jack Junkies” kind of way. I think some folks here once were acquainted with the folks who ran that, and I’d sure like to hear their story. I thought their effort kicked ass, was sad to see it go, but as in so many tragic situations, was left only frustrated with no explanation of its passing. At least they posted it on the web site. I think MyBay in Denton is still operational, and that gives me hope that something like a non-profit version could actually work. With a “parent” connection like DMS, maybe even thrive.

TLDNR: Thanks for an honest discussion. Let’s get this stuff documented and “in your face” for hopeful new members so we can avoid this in future. Is DMS automotive prime for a spinoff?

I proposed a solution once before of ensuring the auto area only with a different provider who covers the auto field. They would limit it to automotive activities only and cover us for this type of work.

@Kentamanos As for insuring certified vs non profit volunteers, the majority of shops do not hire certified employee’s and rarely do they even self certify. The only shops I know of who hire only ASE techs as mechanics are dealerships and they are a slim portion to the automotive industry.

Most auto industry business hire kids who can turn a wrench and do what they are told. You usually will have one or two out of 10 at a shop who are actually trained and possibly certified techs.

@AndrewLeCody as for saying this is disrespectful to those who have worked hard to get us where we are, how? We did not directly attack those people, we merely said we want to strive for more and cannot understand why we as a customer have to be limited when we are not even covered in auto as members anyway.

As to my proposal can we ask insurance if DMS members teach classes to only other DMS members can we teach a class on anything automotive since we are not covered anyway?

What is our current cost per month for insurance total? Specific things you want covered? I will shop around for another insurance provider.

IANAM, so I will concede you know better on employment practices and required certification.

I would still assert there’s a huge difference in insuring X (where X is a known number most likely less than 1000 :smile:) number of employees to work on vehicles vs anyone who walks in off the street up to Y (where Y is currently less than 7 billion :laughing:).

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I propose this topic be locked from further comment and we continue the insurance discussion on the new thread.

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@LisaSelk or @AndrewLeCody if you get a chance could you lock this thread?