Armed, civilized and polite

Shared by a friend.
*Lengthy but worth reading

“Firearms in a civilized society"

Written by Marko Kloos

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

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The whole article (or is it a Rhet 101 paper?) start off with a completely false premise(s) in 1st and 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. Hard to bother reading after that.

F.

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I would take this a bit further - dealing with the intensely stupid and the psychotic.

Both have no reason and make no bones about anything rational.

It’s why I came to get my carry license. I’d be very happy never to have to make use of it. But I have NO doubt I’m the better for knowing how to handle firearms safely in my own defense given a 911 response time average of 9 minutes in suburbia on average. By then, whatever was going to happen is naught but a memory.

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One can only assume that our society is becoming less polite because we need more guns, I guess.

I’d agree with the paper except for one thing.

A large portion of the population will not pull the trigger when the need is present. The will pause to consider the consequences of their actions, the legal and moral ramifications of what they are about to do and in those few seconds the attacker has already won the battle.

My point here? If you are going to carry you need to have already convinced yourself that if you draw you are going to shoot. While there are no real statistic on distance from attack to defender, most injuries occur within a few feet. Instead of practicing hitting a dime sized mark with a well aimed shot, you should work on hitting an 8 inch circle with a shoot fired from a few inches of your waist or where ever you holster your weapon.

Last though on self defense… Learn to use a knife, best close quarter weapon you can own…

An interesting read on gun fights…

A quote I’ve heard about knife fights…

The loser dies on the street, the winner dies in the ambulance.

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Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

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Many years ago I took Karate from a master sensei. He was a Marine who served in Korea and he learned Karate there. He got his black belt there, too. He owned a radiator shop my dad did some electrical work for and that is where I met him as I was helping my dad with the work. He taught me self-defense as well as the formal art of shotokan karate. His methods were a little unconventional, but I learned some valuable skills from him.

He told me more than once that the rules of self defense are: 1) run 2) but if forced to fight take the offensive. He taught knife defenses, stick defenses and the use of other weapons, too. There are close quarter defenses against many of them and there are some real interesting strategies for defending yourself against them. Guns are another story.

His shop was burglarized one night and he was killed by a guy carrying a shotgun with double-aught buckshot. He didn’t own a gun because he didn’t think he needed one. That is one reason I believe in owning a gun for self defense.

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I would say that the society has gotten less polite because of the infringements on personal rights. As a gun owner, I’m scared of the possibility of ever actually defending myself or another with a firearm. It is so demonized to own or use a gun, that even if I used a firearm in the defense of life, it may be considered a jail-able offense based on the BS story the media jumps to portray without the support of fact. Having to defend against claims that I was a vigilante, because I happen to own more than one fire. Or, claiming I’m a aspiring assassin, because I’ve modified my firearm to increase my proficiency with it.

I echo this sentiment.


When I was 18 in my first year of college, I stepped into a situation where a firearm was pulled on me. I was cruising the streets of North Garland with some of my old friends from high school sharing in the ideas that we might be a part of some fast and furious movie. We would follow the street racers and I would show off my new Mustang which had been by far my largest ever purchase to that date. I thought I was a real adult at this point. The night had come to an end as we all sat in Whataburger finishing food. I was among the last two cars of my group to leave the whataburger. I had my Girlfriend’s Freshman Brother with me in the and I was driving him back to her house as she had left a few minutes earlier and he wanted to ride in the mustang. As we were pulling out of the parking lot, the car of young high school girls in front of me pulled out and a White Chrysler 300 in the second lane had swerved and almost hit them. He then slammed on his breaks and honked waiving them into a dark street. The girls pulled down the street and the car pulled in behind them. Having seen the whole thing and knowing there was no contact, I pulled up as well to help. I parked in front of the girls and walked to their car to make sure everything was OK. They were frazzled, but good and I said stay in the car, as I noticed the driver of the other vehicle jump out and run to his trunk. I turned to ask if he was ok and if he thought there had been any damage. As I got to the back of the girls car, the driver of the Chrysler pulled a revolver from a crown royal bag and placed his sites directly on me. I yelled to the girls drive away and stood there unarmed with my hands in the air. As the girls screamed and started the car, the gun man changed his mind and dived into his car and almost ran me over as he drove away. I got back to my car and called the police and gave a description of the situation. I count myself lucky, that I wasn’t killed that night. But, still to this day I don’t know what the intentions of that driver was. Was he scared of me or was he intending to do something to these girls on a dark street?

Either way, I will not find myself stuck like that again. I am probably quicker to help others than I am to help myself and that is why I own my carry piece. I’m not trying to be a policeman or a hero. But, at the same time I don’t think you need to be either to protect yourself or others around you.

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Interesting video, love the use of animation to better tell the story rather than just listening to one person’s voice.

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The less entertaining, but still interesting story from the mouth of the man himself

I try to bear in mind there are always 2 sides to every story.

Then there’s the the onlooker viewpoint
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/03/joseph_lozito.php

Hmm… Either way, the “last victim”, even though the armed officers were right there, still got stabbed. Repeatedly. If the perp were any good at it, Lozito’d be dead from a knife wound to the carotid. Would the victim being armed have helped? Would being concerned that others MIGHT be armed (in a LTC environment like Dallas, for example) have made the rampage less likely to occur?
Interesting…

Oh, but the point of Lozito’s story: the cops (in NYC) are NOT THERE TO PROTECT. Legally, not their job. So do we need to change their motto from “to protect and to serve” to “to standby and to observe”? Hm… Even if he IS a “candy ass” who wants a check, I think he has a point.

EDIT: I’m distracted by the changes in the 2 officers made by Cracked, too. If you’re going to tell a “factual” story in an entertaining way, shouldn’t you at least stick to one side’s “facts”? I know. don’t get your news from “Cracked”.

I believe there are 3 sides. One side to what the first person says, the other side that the second person said. Then there is what really happened. We as humans are inherently forgetful.

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Does an armed CHL holder in Texas have any duty to assist in a similar situation? Or is “standby and observe” all one needs to do?

Technically, there’s only this.
But usually there are at least the 2 constructed “sides” or viewpoints when 2 individuals interact. These are what we can find out after the fact. Finding out what really happened can be much more difficult. Even with video evidence. There’s a ton of theory and discussion in physics about the consequences of observing. This is just a more “close to home” version of that…

This space intentionally left blank.

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You have no duty to the public beyond any other citizen as a CHL (now LTC) holder. I don’t doubt that the overwhelming majority of law enforcement officers would intervene to prevent violent crime and save lives, but they’re not required to by the law nor court precedent.

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That is true in Texas to the best of my understanding, but some states do have Duty to Rescue Laws. I believe 10 states have these on the books as of 2009, based on the linked Wiki. Be careful not to mix these up with Good Samaritan laws which are there to protect those that try to render aid from liability.

“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.” ― J. Michael Straczynski

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Never really agreed with the 3 sides theory. ‘Truth’ is in the eye of the beholder. In any engagement, there is a world view and ‘truth’ each person has individually. That IS their truth. Any third view is simple, subjective bias as an observer. Little truth there, right?

Judgements now run the gamut and once again little truth exists there.

According to an online dictionary you are correct.

According to the same dictionary you are wrong.

I suspect Mr Straczynski is using the first definition in his quote; the one you are not using. Which means you and Mr Straczynski are both correct (and both wrong) and your post is likely non sequitur.

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Actually it was Kosh your quoting, joe was just channeling him. :grinning:

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