01 Mazda Millenia Remaining Bugs

New issues cropping up yet again.

!. I saw my coolant temp getting toward 212 F (boiling) and actually hit the number while idling. And this is AFTER 3 distilled water flushes. There is still something floating around in there causing blockages? Seems unlikely but possible. Or crappy thermostat that was new just a few weeks ago.

  1. Im stuck with EGR not being tested. Its been this way for a long bit now, many miles. Here is the listing to tests I just performed. Note that Test 2 CID 11 is missing:

Mode $06 report generated by Torque for Android

Vehicle VIN: Not present
Vehicle Manufacturer: Unknown
Vehicle Calibration ID: Not present
Unit and scaling information are not supplied with the data from the ECU for this type of vehicle. Consulting the manufacturers service book for this information is recommended.
Test report:

TID:$01 CID:$11

  • Rich to Lean sensor threshold voltage(constant)
    Max: 365
    Test result value: 85
    PASS

TID:$01 CID:$21

  • Rich to Lean sensor threshold voltage(constant)
    Max: 365
    Test result value: 117
    PASS

TID:$02 CID:$21

  • Lean to Rich sensor threshold voltage(constant)
    Max: 40
    Test result value: 1
    PASS

TID:$03 CID:$11

  • Low sensor Voltage for switch time calculation
    Max: 46
    Test result value: 1
    PASS

TID:$03 CID:$21

  • Low sensor Voltage for switch time calculation
    Max: 46
    Test result value: 3
    PASS

TID:$04 CID:$01

  • High sensor Voltage for switch time calculation
    Min: 0
    Test result value: 92
    PASS

TID:$04 CID:$02

  • High sensor Voltage for switch time calculation
    Min: 0
    Test result value: 92
    PASS

TID:$05 CID:$01

  • Rich to Lean sensor switch time(calculated)
    Min: 0
    Test result value: 72
    PASS

TID:$06 CID:$01

  • Lean to Rich sensor switch time(calculated)
    Min: 0
    Test result value: 113
    PASS

TID:$11 CID:$11

Min: 34
Test result value: 480
PASS

TID:$11 CID:$21

Min: 34
Test result value: 48
PASS

End of report.

!. I saw my coolant temp getting toward 212 F (boiling) and actually hit the number while idling. And this is AFTER 3 distilled water flushes. There is still something floating around in there causing blockages? Seems unlikely but possible. Or crappy thermostat that was new just a few weeks ago.

Assuming your coolant loop is holding pressure, and you are using the recommended antifreeze mix, 212F is perfectly normal. Your coolant is not boiling at this point due to both the pressure (think pressure cooker) and the glycol. Of your temp holds the range at about 205-220F during all modes of driving, your thermostat, pump, and radiator are all doing their jobs just fine.

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Zack is right. Straight water boiling point at 15 psi is about 250 degrees. Add glycol in & it will go up some.

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You guys are the experts, and I am just learning, so I am all ears. However, my instinct is that there is still some problem here. I have corrected most issues, but leaving a little bug lurking about can destroy all my hard work prematurely. I want to be very careful that I do not leave things in such a situation as to cause undue wear and tear on the engine, and thusly premature head gasket and engine failure. I have observed that the engine runs quite EXCELLENT until it gets really, really warmed up, and then things seem to degrade.

Let me explain where I am going with this. You see, I have a new engine and it is presently sealed nicely with the felpro MLS gasket. It was a tremendous effort for me, a non-mechanic, to learn enough to be able to properly apply the larning and seal this engine up and reinstall everything so as to make that engine perform so perfectly. I mean for the first 10-15 mins of driving, it runs like I am sure that it did when driven off the new car lot back in the Bush administration.

I saw a video, I think it was a Scotty Kilmer one, about a quick test to determine the effectiveness of catalyst. He pointed out that infared thermometers are cheap (I have a $10 Harbor Freight one) and can be used to do a quick catalyst test. He said that when catalyst is properly working, the pipe before the catalyst will get to about 200 F. And the pipe after the catalyst will get much hotter. However, when you have a catalyst that is really more half-assed, the pipe prior to catalyst will get hot, and may cause overheating issues. Now we have observed previously that perhaps one of my catalysts was not performing as well as the other. The 1 bank catalyst has significantly more rich to lean swing after catalyst than bank 2.

I would like to take more data on this car to prove/disprove my theory. The cat runs as I would expect until it gets really, really warmed up. Then, once warm, the engine is crammed in a tight fit engine bay, and sealed in with protective shielding all around. If something is getting hot in there, on a cool day like yesterday, I noticed the fans were not coming on. There is minimal airflow through that cavity, and so everything heats together. When this happens, the engine quits sounding as perfect, idles a bit rougher, and I notice the temp starting to peak. The thermostat is uspposed to kick on at 180 F.

So let me ask this one, with a 180 F thermostat, what temperature ranges of coolant temp sensor, which is placed at coolant line right as it exits the engine headed for radiator, so what temp ranges are expected for a setup like this? I plan to ensure that my system is cooling properly and all systems are functioning as expected here, as insurance to protect my time and energy investment in that engine.

This is not just something where I plan to drop $350 for new catalysts and then say to myself ‘much better’. I want to catch my bug with data, fix it, then show the improvement in the data. As I understand things, passing emissions is not really the gold standard explaining that everything is working well. It just means that nothing is out of sorts to the point that an obvious emissions problem exists. You can have a problem that will degrade further in the near future and still pass emissions.

This car and its parts have been donated to my little company I am trying to build, 3E8Tech.com, and so I hope to be using it shuttle engineers around, especially this engineer, for hopefully years to come. It would be quite embarrassing for the little engineer shuttle to be so poorly engineered as to break down in front of all the folks wondering, “so are these engineers for this company any good?” And that answer cannot be, “Well I think the engineer has a busted head gasket. Just look at all that white smoke! He should have engineered his car a little bit better, then our engineer would have been here on time! (insert evil mocking laughter here, signifying the end of all hope for the anticipated happily ever after denouement)”

http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant_sensors.htm

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Let me answer the input about the sensor itself:

That article is a good read. And points all well taken.

In this situation, I have a new coolant sensor that I installed a few weeks ago. On this design, it is located on a piece of piping just right as coolant leaves the engine on its way to the radiator via upper radiator hose. The fact that I am able to always see the temperature when running the engine via Torque, I think, is a clear indication that this sensor is reporting temperature data appropriately. This is not to say that the correct things are happening as a result of the readings. It just means that the temp sensor itself is properly functioning.

So have a section in my service manual on “Fuel and Emissions Systems”. This is the most useful and applicable section that I have seen in the service manual. Mazda is great for documenting thoroughly appropriate procedures for pretty much the entire range of issues one might expect for a car like mine that is built to be 100% Mazda spec compliant.

In this chapter, there are extensive procedures documented that can be used to validate proper operation of the key systems in play during engine operation. For example, there is a section on EGR, and exactly how to verify that it is properly actuating and functioning when using the car. A lot of the checks are things like measuring coil resistance for solenoids to be sure that there truly is a load for the control circuit to drive. Some of the checks include things like: “use this certain PID and switch it to XXX and verify that the solenoid actuates”.

Thing is, I have not, so far, been able to figure out how to do this PID switching trick with Torque. I have noticed that this mode exists with the Actron scanner at DMS.

I would like to walk through all of these tests with this Mazda to ensure that all these control switches and solenoids are properly functioning. I can come and do this at DMS and hog a bay for hours. On the other hand, I can hog my own bay at home and have access to my refrigerator and its contents should I be able to figure out how to use Torque with ELM327 to do the same thing. Anyone know how to use Torque to manually toggle PID stuff?

I just had two thoughts.

  1. I could do this out back at DMS, no bay required.

  2. I remember that both Flepro and Beck Arnley’s MLS head gaskets for this application have been modified to remove coolant holes on one part of the engine. In other words, someone has noticed that this engine, used in 5 production Ford and Mazda models, has an inherent cooling issue. The issue is that coolant does not properly flow through the engine, as flow forms a loop closest to water pump and therefor provides inadequate circulation to the portions of the engine furthest from the water pump. So these aftermarket gasket companies, which are the better ones IMO, have attempted to improve things by forcing this circulation to a more central spot in the engine in hopes of better cooling at the extremities. Here is a photo, notice that at the bottom of left head gasket, holes are not present for coolant flow as they are in the cheapie head gaskets.

So let me formalize thee questions on my mind in hopes that someone may read through this and have answers come to mind:

  1. Can you use Torque to set individual PID bits as suggested by Mazda service manual to manually actuate solenoids and what not?

  2. My engine has a 180 degree thermostat. I saw it peak at 212 during idle yesterday after a 10-20 mile drive set. I felt it was overheating, as this is a 32 degree F departure from the 180. What is acceptable range of temperatures for 180 system like mine with 180 degree thermostat?

  3. Given the situation where I have noticed that the aftermarket head gasket manufacturers have altered their head gasket designs illuminating a cooling flow problem, what recommendations do experts have for me to ensure robust engine life for this rebuild?

  4. I believe that this engine still has a bug, and the bug is related to overheating. it is not an overwhelming overheating, it is more subtle than that. But my car has it, and it is not properly addressed. I believe that this issue led to the early demise of the engine the first time, as 115k miles is too short for Jap designed engine. The engine suffers mild overheating, wears on MLS gaskets, they start leaking early, water gets in cylinders, and we wind up where I started with this project. What data/testing is recommended to highlight this issue to all on this board where we can clearly see the issue so that we can apply a clever solution and see the improvement in a subsequently taken data set?

#2 - What is the temperature of the OEM thermostat? Trying to substitute in a lower temperature range will throw off your ECU/PCM and will not fix a broken cooling system (obstruction, etc.)

There is no advantage to running a lower temperature thermostat, and it may actually cause drivability issues

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Make sure you’re looking at the right thing too. On all of my MX-5s there was a separate thermal switch for activating the electric cooling fans on the front of the engine vs. the temperature sensor for the ECU on the back of it.

Are your fans turning on to cool things down? If not, look there first.

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Milly 2.5 calls for 180 degree thermostat.

BTW, I discover this evening that my fans are not coming on. This is why I am experiencing overheating concerns. After some digging aroujnd, I found the answer: Evidently, during my flushes, I damaged the coolant temperature sensor. It turns on the fans. Strangely, I still get the temperature of the engine through Torque, but this device turns on the fans and it is presently not doing this. I verified this by disconnecting it. Fans came right on, no problem. Crazy, but this device is only a couple of months old. I guess it didn’t like all those flushes I did. Regardless, I’ll pick up new one tomorrow <$20.

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That is a thermal switch. It’s not what tells the engine temp to the ECU. :wink:

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I am gathering that. But then what does the ECU use to sense temperature?

Another sensor… duh! :slight_smile:

Look for this one:

(Pic shamelessly swiped using a Google search.)

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So this is really strange. I disconnect while watching torque, key on, motor off. Temp 107 F, fans off. I disconnect the ‘coolant temperature sensor’ (according to Oreilly’s), temp -40, fans on, torque warns of icy conditions.

So I think my coolant temperature sensor does both.

But then how could it sense temperature correctly but not turn on the fans?

Bizarre, but dude on the forums knew this would be the problem if your fans quit working. Seems I’ve seen this one before. Once replaced both temperature sensors and fans will work. Maybe one of the two lines is for temp and the other is for fans?

This guy eventually gets around to it, and I’m including this here mostly for the visual, but there appears to be 2 electronic devices for this engine.


The single wire “sendor” controls the gauge. The 2-wire ECT sends data to the ECU, and the ECU controls all the other functions, including fans.

Wiring diagrams if you scroll down.

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Very interesting indeed.

OK, there are several flavors of 2.5 L V6 that Mazda has made. Mine is KL-ZE. There is KL-DE 2.5, which is probably what the video shows, and there is a 2.3 L supercharged engine which is what the article is about.

I have confirmed that the fans now work with a new 'Coolant Temperature Sensor", and neither the temp guage nor the fans work without this sensor. My car does not have the ‘sender’ unit shown in the video. Instead, I can see a spot where it would go, but it has not been bored out. The functionalities appear to have been combined.

There is a device called ‘sender’ on my car near oil filter, but as I understand things, this device sends only digital T/F signal indicating sufficient oil pressure. It bores into an oil passageway. The only other single pin device that comes to mind had to do with power steering, as it connects to the steering pump.

So lets talk about what I just did after installing a new ‘coolant temp sensor’. I drove around block a couple times, then pulled up in driveway to idle. I watched the temperature creep up slowly from about 192 on up all the way to 208. I started to get mad, but then I saw it clock 210, and heard a light fan noise come from under the hood. Yes! The temp quickly dropped to 200 and the fan stopped. That was all I needed to see.

The well informed manager at my local Oreilly’s explained that if you overheat one of these sensors, forget it. They will quit running the fans. They are just very fragile. Don’t cook it. If you see the temp creep up at idle, better check it. Lesson learned!

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Mine is a late model 2.5. A lot of things got dropped off as Mazda determined they were unnecessary. I have no oil cooler. It did squat. I do not have the crazy BAC valve squared ‘maze’ gasket on the throttle body. And this one is my brother’s fault: I have no subwoofer (and there is an empty bay where one once existed on this car, but this is a whole different situation I am sure, stemming from his poorer days… lol).

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Fortunately, I broke the first sensor I tried to use to replace. And there the secret is: thermistor. Se evidently, according to Oreilly’s manager, who nail it 100% of the time in just a few words, if you overheat these, they will quit turning on the fans. How, I wonder? He says maybe somehow changing the metal properties or the coating. Probably intentional, sell more sensors. I asked about my recurring Bank 1 Sensor 2 heater circuit code, and he asked if maybe my cat was getting old. Hmmmm…

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Your local O’Reilly’s manager is…different than most (not all) of those I’ve spoken with.
Buy him lunch…
(maybe you have already done, given how many parts you’ve bought there :slight_smile: )

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Well he did ask if I cared to pay $500 per cat. I explained that I would have to ebay that one at $200 each.

But yes, I think I’ve already fed him nicely, as he’d rather see me than Santa. But lets just consider this for a minute, learning costs. Plain and simple. It costs time on your own. Parts on your car. Books at the college. Tuition/room and board. DMS dues. Lift class fees. etc…

I paid, but I come away with healthy set of car knowledge, and one nice little sedan with new engine. Thanks DMS, Oreilly’s!

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