I’ll be keeping an eye on the reversal of the assault on our 2nd Amandment rights by the outgoing administration to be able to build our own defense rifles at DMS.
With this happening, hopefully sooner than later.
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From what I’ve read you can build an 80% lower at DMS and have always been able to.
If that’s the case , I’m on it next week. But my understanding was that you had to “own” the tools to be able to do it.
It’s time for Hatcher’s to get an 80% class. I’d also like to see a AK47/74, lower build by cutting it out on the plasmacam. @Team_Hatchers
Not sure this is/was the case. This was a hot topic for a while.
Topic was discussed in mbrshp/brd mtng(s). Can’t find minutes - best I can recall was decision to error on the side of caution and not allow at Space.
Not trying to rain on anyone’s parade here. Given what’s at stake here - make sure all the i’s are dotted and t’s crossed before you proceed.
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A while back they made laws about needing to own the tools you were working on because people were setting up shops where you could “build your own” on their tools. Basically you’d go hit the button on one tool that was already setup and move your part to the next one and hit another go button.
We didn’t make a rule on it, but did decide to err on the side of caution and say we preferred if you didn’t.
Also the only tool I’ve seen 80% lowers completed on was recently donated to a robotics school
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I’ve seen two 80% AR-15s done on the Bridgeport, both before the ATF made their ridiculous ruling.
The ATF has been absolutely rabid out in California on shops that were letting people use their CNC stuff. I would recommend that you NOT do an 80% lower at Dallas Makerspace, especially on a CNC, until after the ATF has been (hopefully) spanked soundly by the incoming administration.
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I have a setup using the DRO on a Bridgeport. It’s the ideal mill to finish out an 80%. I’ve seen a friend do his on a Bridgeport before.
I’m hoping the illegal ATF rule that has no jurisdiction to impose limits on our 2nd Amandament rights is surely slapped down after Jan 20th. I’m hearing that NRA has this as an agenda for the upcoming administration.
Let’s hope so. I’m guessing cutting out an AK flat with the plasmacam would be no problem.
Yeah, AK47 flats would absolutely be no problem as long as you don’t bend them up and weld them here yet.
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This has all been discussed in detail many time. You can finish YOUR OWN 80% lower at DMS. The catches are based on machine shops selling services of finishing the 80% lower, where they would program the gcode, chuck the material and all you would do is hit go. We do not sell these services at DMS and if you were to attempt this kind of service you would need a manufacturing cert and would have to follow all laws for making guns for sale. You are legally allowed to finish your own lower for your own use that is the limitation.
All that said it is easier and often cheaper to just buy a finished lower. But, I know many that want to finish an 80% lower have other concerns rather than money and ease.
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Wrong. The specific language, which is in the thread Art posted above, specifically talks about associations that rent access to their machine tools being covered, even if they do not provide hands on assistance with the tools.
The bottom line is that if you try to use our machine tools you put DMS at risk, since the ATF could seize ALL our property, at which point we would not have the revenue to fight the seizure. The juice is not worth the squeeze.
I am not a lawyer and neither is Walter. I’ve covered this to the level of risk I’m willing to take on and I personally would be willing to finish a 80% lower at Dms for myself if I wanted to. I don’t want to, they are more labor intensive and more expensive than just buying a finished lower.
The only way to keep your rights are to fight for them and to use them. If you are too scared to use your rights then you have already lost them.
I’m not your parent, you don’t need my approval. Do your own research. Good luck.
You don’t need to be a lawyer, the text of the ATF letter is available. The bottom line is using DMS equipment places DMS at risk.
[quote]
Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment. [/quote]
atf-ruling-2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing.pdf (69.2 KB)
That is about as clear as it gets. No need for research just read the letter from the ATF. And a few news stories as Stan mentioned above. The ATF has been enforcing this.
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This is what puts the DMS in danger if members complete lowers here on DMS equipment… The ATF is very much wrong in their interpretation of the law, but DMS doesn’t have the money to fight them. This will require the incoming administration slapping the hands of the ATF bureaucrats, so everyone that cares about this subject needs to write their representatives and let them know how you feel about ATF overreach.
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“Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.”
― Frederick Douglass
Yeah, that quote will stop the ATF… Sure…
DMS does not need their attention.
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The ATF is going after businesses that provide tooling for Joe Public to finish an 80% lower receiver to circumvent background checks. We don’t “control” our tooling which is one of the criteria in the ruling that doesn’t apply to us (IMHO, IANAL). People can make whatever they want and always have been able to which is very different from these businesses providing a specific resource to complete a single task. Also we don’t have a glass cabinet filled with dozens of 80% lower receivers for sale.
I do recall a discussion prior to my involvement with the organization in an official capacity. I disagree with the outcome but it hasn’t come up again since then. I think erring on the side of caution is one way to describe what happened.
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Can anyone on the street use our tools? No, they need to pay for a membership and take basic safety/operation training. IMO, that is the definition of ‘control’
But, none of our opinions matter. What matters is the opinion of the thugs with federal badges. Do we really think it is a good idea to put DMS at risk should the men in black combat suits decide to raid us, so that a small number can create their own ghost guns?
It seems pretty easy to me, email the ATF and lay down exactly what it is that we do.
Here is there email.
I am absolutely on the side of caution and feel that the benefits is not worth the risk to the organization.
I will be the first person to contact the ATF if I see this happening at DMS. A lot of people spent a lot of time building up DMS and just because you want to place fast and loose does not mean you’re taking the rest down with us.
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Calling the ATF is likely to ‘take us down’. The regs in this area cover the business offering access to the tools, not people creating their ghost guns. Read the letter, even the ATF still acknowledge that individuals can manufacture their own firearms. What they want is any business allowing people to do so with ‘their’ tools to comply with marking, taxing, and other regs…
In short, Nick would be taking no risk for himself. All the risk is to DMS.
Walter I absolutely agree with you it looks extremely clear from my perspective and I question if the people arguing have even read the letter.
But I also mark this up with we can’t control someone doing someone doing something illegal and we don’t need a rule for it.
I call the ATF on personal matters pretty often and it’s not a bunch of cowboys they are extremely knowledgeable and respectful of people that want to comply with the law.